N.B. leaders discuss solutions to health care, economy, social issues during CTV News roundtable

Three of New Brunswick's party leaders sparred over leadership style, health care, economy and campaign promises during a roundtable discussion Wednesday evening.

The leaders of the Liberal, Progressive Conservative, and Green political parties represented in the last legislature took part in the event hosted by CTV Atlantic's senior anchor, Todd Battis, at St. Thomas University in Fredericton.

The roundtable focused on the following topics:

• health care
• economy
• social/ education
• leadership

CTV Atlantic also included questions submitted or inspired by viewers.

New Brunswickers will head to the polls to vote for a new leader on Monday.

Health care

Green Leader David Coon made it clear that the future of New Brunswick's health-care system must include collaborative care centres to provide residents with the care they need when they need it.

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"First of all, they would exist because we would put the funding formula necessary to pay the staff on those collaborative care teams. Whether they're part of a family practice set up by a family doctor or a nurse practitioner, or you have a team of health professionals with nurse practitioners, dietitians, nurses, other health professionals. Or whether they're working in a community health-care centre setting and working that same kind of collaborative team-based approach. Right now, there is no formula for paying those people, other than the doctor," said Coon.

"This approach has been promoted since 2003 when Bernard Lord was the premier; it’s ancient history now. But it hasn't happened because no government has been willing to make the investment, and with our investments, we're going to make sure as well that our nurses and other health-care professionals are going to get paid the same as those in P.E.I. and Nova Scotia, so we can bring them home and retain the ones that are here."

Liberal Leader Susan Holt has promised to create 30 collaborative health-care centres. She says each centre must reflect the community in which it’s located, as well as the people who live there.

"Because we have different health-care needs across the province, we have different community realities. I've been meeting with municipal partners, with different nurse practitioners and physicians in different communities and they want to come together in different ways, in different places," said Holt.

"So, Holt government is going to put in place a flexible model that recognizes the local reality on the ground because New Brunswickers want to get care close to home and they want to get care from people in their community that they can trust. So, we’re going to bring those people together and we're going to take the admin off of their plate."

PC Leader Blaine Higgs says he agrees with Holt and Coon that collaborative care clinics are an important component for the future of health care.

"Doctors don't want to work the certain lifestyle that they had before with so many patients and so we see doctors see maybe about 1,500 patients, and then we have collaborative care models where we have nurse practitioners, you have nurses, maybe even paramedics involved in seeing the primary care access in the first stage,” said Higgs.

“But this is in a clinic that yes, has administrative capabilities provided, has three or four doctors there, so you're assigned to a clinic more so than just assigned to a particular doctor because every province is searching for more doctors.”

All three leaders agree the old model of each patient having an individual family doctor must change in order to fix the ongoing health-care crisis.

"Those days are going to be over," said Coon. "Now, there's some doctors facing retirement who are going to want to hold on and stay in solitary practices and we need to support them with that so they can take more patients and get them into their offices sooner, helping them with paperwork and so on. But the transformation, if we're going to end waiting lists, which is our goal, is towards collaborative care teams so that that ends up being your family practice rather than a solitary doctor."

Higgs added to Coon's statement, saying many doctors who are retiring don't want the current patient load they have.

"But they'd be willing to stay and work a day or two a week and would love to do that, and we've heard from many who've said that," said Higgs.

Holt responded to Higgs's comments, saying doctors have been asking the Higgs government for a reduced patient load and have been told “no.”

"They haven't been able to do that under an inflexible model that the Higgs government has put in place," said Holt.

Higgs responded, saying Holt is "once again not telling the truth."

"She started off with a statement of 180,000 (people without a doctor). The actual record of 35,000 patients without doctors that are on a waiting list, that's the number. The interpolated number that she's using is an estimation. We have 35,000 patients on a waiting list looking for a doctor," said Higgs.

Holt started the roundtable saying 180,000 New Brunswickers are waiting for a family doctor or a nurse practitioner. She also said that:

• 80 per cent of nurses in New Brunswick are leaving their careers before the age of 35
• 1,108 seniors are waiting for care, with 550 of them staying in hospital while they wait
• New Brunswickers have to wait three times longer to access mental health services than the rest of Canada

"The 80 per cent nurses, that report is about to be corrected because the originator themselves has said we made a mistake, this is wrong. So, I would say a little fact-checking would be in order," said Higgs in response to Holt's numbers.

Holt says her figures have been fact-checked, adding that the health council, medical society and nurse practitioners have all confirmed them.

Following Holt and Higgs’ back-and-forth, Coon agreed with Holt's statement that there is no flexibility in the health-care system.

"So, we have a management problem when there's health authorities like Horizon that say, 'You can't work here as a family doctor unless you do it our way.' And that's what's been happening, and they’ve unbelievably been turning family doctors away because they didn't want to work the way they wanted them to work," said Coon.

"And how could that be happening, given the crisis we're in right now, where there are… avoidable deaths happening and unnecessary suffering happening?"

When asked how government can ensure New Brunswickers aren’t on the hook for hundreds of millions of dollars for travel nurses, Coon spoke first, saying there needs to be enough nurses to do the work, which is the problem.

"The Liberals and Conservatives have driven the health-care network into the ground and that's why the emergency was created and forced them to hire expensive travel nurses … They've let the system crumble, they've ignored it. They've not done the work that needed to be done," said Coon.

Economy

All three leaders have made promises to increase and create new housing.

Part of Holt's promise was to build 30,000 new homes in about five years if elected. When asked how she could fulfil this promise while Canada faces a skilled labour shortage, she said other provinces, like Nova Scotia and P.E.I., have put incentives in place that developers need to get started.

"We see that Nova Scotia and P.E.I. have taken the PST off new multi-unit developments and that's generated an influx in investment and development. We want to do the same thing here to make sure this is a great place for people to come and build the homes that New Brunswickers need. We have to overhaul our property tax system because right now, it also is serving as a disincentive to getting more housing built," said Holt.

"We think it's going to take all sorts of different partnerships with municipalities in particular, who have been begging to be at the table in housing conversations, when we have a provincial government that just wants to get in the way between them and the federal government."

Higgs responded by stating the province has had record building in the last two years, adding it’s been the highest New Brunswick has ever seen.

"We're already moving in that direction and we're seeing it in the last two years. To suggest that reducing the PST, which would cost the province about $170 million, is going to change that when the builders tell me they cannot build anymore, they do not have the talent, to your point, the labour, the ability to do that," said Higgs.

"But it doesn't get to add more profits to the actual developers, and it doesn't get to the people who are maybe in the permits or the renting. So, what is the program there? If we can't build more, then we just give more tax dollars away?"

Coon noted, if there aren't enough workers to get the jobs done, each government’s models and policies don't matter.

"I've been meeting so many people who have those trades – electricians, heavy equipment operators and so on – who can't get work. We would fast-track their certification process so that they can go to work; that's what we want to do," said Coon.

"We've had some pilot projects to help move that along that the federal and provincial governments have been able and then just pulled the rug right out from under them and didn't turn them into full-fledged programs. We need to fast-track their accreditation so that they can get to work. All across this province we have tradespeople who are not working and could be working on those buildings that we need to build and those homes we need to build."

One of Higgs's promises is to cut HST to 13 per cent if elected.

"On the HST, it will be worth about $1,000 for every family, and that excludes any big purchases. It's the average purchase, and the idea that people can buy more with what they have," said Higgs.

Higgs said the biggest opportunity to help with affordability is getting rid of the carbon tax.

"The carbon tax is now, it was never a surprise, but it is certainly flowed down into everything we buy, everything we do, and so we're saying that is the key problem. And that's a federal policy supported by the Liberal leader."

In August, the New Brunswick government released its budget projections for the 2024-25 fiscal year, saying it now shows a deficit of $27.6 million, compared to an initial surplus of $40.9 million.

Officials within the Department of Finance and Treasury Board say the change is mostly due to greater health-care expenses.

When questioned as to whether governments should be running a surplus at all, Coon said when there is a surplus, governments should be making sure they take a balanced approach.

"I don't know what happened to the balance the Progressive Conservative Party historically had, and that is, you put some of that surplus into fixing problems in our public services and put some of it on dealing with the debt,” said Coon.

Higgs responded by stating the province is paying $100 million less in interest than it previously was.

Viewer question: If elected, will you enact a rent cap?

Coon says he would "absolutely" enact a rent cap to assist those struggling to pay for their basic needs if elected.

"And not only would we enact a rent cap, we would tie it to the apartment unit so there's no temptation on part of the landlord or property owner to renovict those people in order to jack their rents up for the next tenants," Coon said.

Holt says, if elected, the Liberal government would also enact a rent cap. She says some rental prices have gone up by 34 per cent in the last four years, and more than 10 per cent last year alone.

"A Holt government would put a rent cap in place to make sure that people have predictable rents for the largest expense they're facing because ... New Brunswickers everywhere are getting priced out of their apartments."

Higgs said the province already has a rent control and a rent bank.

"We control the timing of raising the rent. People just can't go in and raise the rent and what we're finding is good landlords are treating their tenants fairly,” said Higgs.

“There are situations where the rents have got to a point that there are people that are finding it very difficult. That's why we put the rent control. People can appeal it. That's why we put the rent bank, so we can help them with that, and that's why we have subsidized housing, so we can help them with that."

Social issues

Battis said urban areas across New Brunswick have been struggling with addiction and homeless issues, with some city and downtown businesses even locking their doors while they're open for business to avoid any issues.

Higgs says his party's Compassionate Care Intervention Act will help find a path for recovery.

"The days of living on the street on drugs has to end. We said there will be no new injection sites. We don't believe free heroin is the answer to the future. We've seen the growth in our communities, our major urban centres, we've seen those complaints that you've just highlighted, so it's time to deal with this in a Compassionate Care Act that helps people help themselves," said Higgs. "How long can we walk by someone laying on the street in the middle of the winter who we know if they stay there are all night, the chances of survival are slim to none and they're going to say, 'No, I'm sorry. I'm not going to come in from the cold.' How long do we walk on by and just say, 'OK?' I think it's time that we changed our policies."

Higgs stands by his belief the safe injection sites are not working.

"But it's not easy. I've talked to many people that are working in shelters to help people get off the street, it's not an overnight fix, it's a process. And we've committed to provide the right facilities, the right care for both mental health and addiction treatment that gets people back on track. Gives them hope. Gives them a life back, because today's method is simply not working."

Coon says the Green Party plans to work with what is actually showing to be effective.

"Like the 12 Neighbours program with tiny homes in Fredericton. Very effective, they take a lot of people off the street, they’re staying housed."

Battis pointed out the 12 Neighbours program is a model celebrated across the country.

"It is and it's going to be adopted in Saint John and Moncton and elsewhere. So, build on that success. Social Development (Department), still not on board with it. So, we would make sure it got on board with it to pick up models and adopt them from other places… The road to recovery requires getting at underlying childhood trauma, getting at underlying mental illness and that means treatment and that means access to psychotherapy, and access to mental health counselling, which the Green government would cover."

Coon said his party understands it's currently very difficult to get the psychotherapy or mental health counselling when individuals need it.

"We need to make sure that happens. We've got a lot of practitioners in this province, but many of them are private and there's no way of paying for their cost."

Holt says she has spoken to business owners who have heard from customers who are afraid to go to their business due to homeless and addiction issues in the area.

"Businesses all over urban areas of New Brunswick are experiencing a lot of challenges because we have a government who hasn’t moved the needle on putting in place those residential treatment facilities that everybody agrees that we need," said Holt.

"We have a waiting list of more than 200 people who are looking to get access to that kind of treatment in New Brunswick today, but over the last six years, not a single new bed has been built. Again, there's been promises that, 'We're going to build those beds in Moncton,' but where are they? It's been six years; it shouldn't take that long to tackle what we need to help people get off the streets and get the kind of supports and treatment to have a permanent recovery journey."

Viewer questions: What serious steps will each of you take in order to deter crime in the province?

Coon says his government would make investments in policing directly so a community policing model can be brought back to towns and cities.

"Where officers are assigned to a neighbourhood, so they get to know the people in the neighbourhood. They get to know the problems in the neighbourhood, people know who to turn to, and that direct engagement with boots on the ground in those neighbourhoods will make a difference in terms of the level of property crime and so on that's going on now," said Coon.

Holt agrees with Coon's solution to crime, adding the level of crime appears to be rising across the province.

"We see New Brunswickers are experiencing more and more effects of crime and they're feeling less and less safe, whether it's break-ins to their car at night or property damage or other things... It's a concern a lot of New Brunswickers share and we talk with municipalities that are asking for that; help with boots on the ground. They want to put solutions in place in their community, they're looking at regional policing, they're looking at collaborating with policing strategies, with a government that refuses to provide them the fiscal means to deliver those solutions because they have left the fiscal reform part of municipal reform off the table," said Holt.

"A Holt government is prepared to partner with municipalities to provide them that fiscal reform so that they can deliver the local community safety initiatives that they need for their communities."

Higgs says the province is on the path to hire 80 new RCMP officers. He says there have been 50-to-70 new hires made already.

"We've retrained public safety officers to give them policing authority so they actually are out on the street, they're actually going into communities, they're visible. We have a scan unit reinforced that actually now has shut down 250 drug houses. They do the surveillance, they give it to the RCMP, the RCMP do the actual changes and arrest," said Higgs.

"We asked as premiers across the country, we asked for a change in the criminal code in order to have stronger rules around the criminal code so we could end up with a greater ability to keep people off the streets because today, it is much too loose."

Higgs also said a new correctional facility being built in Minto will have a recovery-based system attached to it.

"That whole idea is that they start the process of recovery and then move into a new program outside of that for mental health and addiction… the consistency is also needed across the communities. So, we need consistency, and I think we'd all agree on this, to understand what the rules are on First Nations and outside of First Nations, and working with the chiefs to make sure their communities are safe as well."

Education

In 2023, the New Brunswick government made changes to Policy 713, requiring students under the age of 16 to receive parental consent before they can change their pronouns or preferred first names at school.

Coon said if elected, his party will revert to the original Policy 713.

"Then we would have recommendations from the child and youth advocate review from experts, and then look at applying the recommendations that would be most helpful to the original Policy 713 and make sure then that the training for teachers and principals around the implementation of Policy 713 is done, which Mr. Higgs prevented from happening," said Coon.

"So that never occurred after Policy 713 was written. It needs to happen. It's about protecting kids, making sure kids are safe and making sure kids feel a part of their school community, that they're respected, that they're welcome, that they're affirmed for who they are, and that's what we would do in respect to Policy 713."

Holt says the relationship and communications between teachers and parents must continue.

"That relationship between parents and teachers is critical to the success of kids in our school system. We will adopt the recommendations that the child and youth advocate put in place that makes sure that parents and teachers are connecting as a first priority, but that continues to leave the opportunity to protect vulnerable kids in those situations that come up where they have an unsafe situation and that their teacher is the person that they're going to for support," said Holt.

"So, we have to make sure that that connection is strong because that's what's helping kids strive, is where parents and teachers connect and where the teachers have the support they need."

As for why Higgs made changes to Policy 713 in the first place, he said there's been outcry across the country.

"When parents realized that there's been secrets kept from them and what their kids were doing at school, I think it’s really unfortunate that we had a policy that would cause a teacher to keep secrets from the parent and be caught in the middle between parents and kids," said Higgs.

"Parents and family have been the foundation of our society forever, and to put the situation in place is not fair to teachers, not fair to parents, and so then you find out, OK, how do I manage with the kids? And how do we put the right protection in place with parents that there's no trouble at home? There's difficulties at home that our social programs should be monitoring and know that. But I appreciate what the Liberal leader said about wanting to know what the kids are doing. I think every parent wants to know what their kids are doing in school and it's really hard to imagine that we would ask teachers to keep secrets from parents. That's unfair to teachers and that is the whole basis of this."

Coon said Higgs has created an environment for transgender children in schools to feel under attack.

"They're supported by their parents, and Mr. Higgs has created and environment where they're being bullied, where they feel less than worthy of who they are, it is shameful what he has done. Those parents support their kids, they're transgender, whatever grade level they're in, and yet they're the ones who are most concerned, they're the ones who complained about Policy 713 when it was changed because of the impacts on their kids, who they're trying to support, who they're trying to do the right thing by," said Coon.

"And yes, Mr. Higgs just bulldozed right over that, creating an environment in the schools that put those kids in a terrible position, feeling unworthy, feeling undervalued and feeling under attack by the bullies in their school."

Higgs said the changes were a way to protect teachers, and not have them caught in the middle of parents and children.

"Obviously to have a path and protect those kids, and to ensure that they get the right coaching and counselling, whether it be from parents, or the right mental health or psychological aspects," said Higgs.

"We need to make sure that they are protected, and we also need to make sure that parents aren't left out."

Viewer question: Can the education system be amended to state new school construction will reflect 10-year projected population of the school boundary zones?

Holt says it is common to see new schools being built, followed by multiple portables on the property to create more space for the growing school population.

"It's incredible to me that we haven't learned when the population has been increasing, when we have these forecasts, that we have schools that are so crowded that teachers are teaching out of cafeterias, libraries have disappeared, art rooms have disappeared, music rooms have disappeared," she said.

Coon believes the process is "far too slow to get schools built."

"And the schools we are building seem to me to be extremely expensive Cadillac version of schools… I don't know why the DTI (Department of Transportation and Infrastructure) is designing these schools on these huge areas of land when we could do them much more affordably. But we need to build and build them more quickly to accommodate the tremendous increase in populations," said Coon.

Higgs says there is a "massive demand" on the school system as the population continues to grow.

"I won't argue. It could be faster, especially in light of what we're seeing but we haven't seen this for generations in New Brunswick. So, to say that we build schools in spec waiting for this to happen or could have projected a 10 per cent increase in population, I guess we are working through all of that. And there is a process where the fastest growing gets the schools and they get built. And I do agree with Mr. Coon in relation to the construction. I think that there certainly should be one template that would fit different size schools, and we don't need all this land to build so we can stay in our urban centres and build a proper school," said Higgs.

Minority government

Todd Battis raised the possibility of the election resulting in a minority government, noting how some voters think a minority government can be good for the province.

Higgs, who formed a minority government following the 2018 election, compared a possible coalition government between the New Brunswick Liberals and Greens to the recently-dissolved federal Liberal and NDP supply-and-confidence agreement and “what that’s done to Canada.”

“I’m hopeful of the outcome and hopeful we’ll receive a majority government, but I know the possibility exists,” he said.

Holt, who said she’s seen polls suggesting a majority government will form after the election, said collaboration can be a positive.

“We want to see people working together for the best interests of New Brunswickers,” she said. “We will respect the wishes of the electorate.”

Coon, who has previously stated he will not support a minority PC government, accused Higgs of not being as open to collaboration as he used to be.

“We worked among the three parties to achieve some important things during the minority government,” he said. “We’ve campaigned on eliminating first-past-the-post and putting in a proportional system of voting to ensure we automatically get collaboration among the parties in government all the time.”

Closing statements

In his closing statement, Coon said the election comes down to three choices.

“More of the same, more of the same with a smiley face stuck on the problems, or a Green government that’s committed to shake up the system that we all know is failing you so it can serve you and tackle the problems,” he said. “We say what we mean and mean what we say. Green is the colour of change.”

Holt said an elected Liberal government would focus on bringing change to the province.

“New Brunswickers feel like they’re falling behind,” she said. “Blaine Higgs has the wrong priorities and no plan. He’s lost his team and he’s lost your trust. It’s never been more clear that New Brunswickers want change. Now is the time for New Brunswickers to come together. It’s time for a change.”

Higgs, quoting his party’s campaign platform, urged voters to keep building together with the PCs.

“Real leadership is not easy,” he said. “New Brunswick has made real progress under the PC government. Susan Holt and the Liberals will take us back into the red. We cannot afford to go back into the red.”

For more New Brunswick news, visit our dedicated provincial page.