CTV News Roundtable: N.S. leaders discuss solutions on affordability, housing, health care

Nova Scotia’s top three political party leaders took part in CTV Atlantic’s roundtable discussion on Thursday, where they sparred over affordability, housing, health care, and campaign promises.

Liberal Leader Zach Churchill, Progressive Conservative Leader Tim Houston and NDP Leader Claudia Chender – the leaders of the three parties represented in the legislature before dissolution – participated in the event hosted by senior anchor, Todd Battis, at CTV Atlantic in Halifax.

The roundtable focused on the following topics:

• affordability
• housing
• health care
• population growth

CTV Atlantic also included questions submitted or inspired by viewers.

In her opening statement, Chender said Nova Scotia has long been considered an affordable place to live, but that is now “under threat,” and the province needs a government who will “take action.”

Houston said his government has made progress in health care but acknowledged that the job “is not done.” He said his plan is working and it’s time to continue on with his plan and get Nova Scotians “the supports they need.”

Churchill questioned whether the PC government’s plan is actually working for Nova Scotians and insisted the Liberals have a platform that will “really help your life.” He said his party would cut taxes, protect renters and set up the “next generation for success.”

Affordability

Affordability was the first topic covered at the roundtable. Battis pointed out each platform includes some kind of tax cut, including Houston’s promise to cut the HST. He noted Houston had more than three years to do that as premier and asked the leaders how they would put more money back into the pockets of Nova Scotians who “desperately need it.”

Houston said he made it clear in 2021 that his government wouldn’t be lowering taxes and would instead focus on investing in health care and infrastructure.

“It was a lot to catch up and we’ve been doing just that,” he said. “But to have the money to support Nova Scotians, you have to grow the economy, and our economy is growing.”

Houston said the PCs have been implementing “targeted supports,” such as the provincial school lunch program, which provides lunch for students at Nova Scotia public schools in a pay-what-you-can system.

“It’s making a difference for families … it’s making a difference for students,” said Houston. “Those targeted supports, they help people, but we know that right now, with what’s happening in the world, we need more broader supports.”

Houston noted many government programs don’t help middle-income families, so the PCs want to make “methodical tax cuts,” such as cuts to the HST and personal income tax.

Speaking on affordability, Churchill said Nova Scotia has the highest taxes in Canada, and that Houston’s tax cuts would amount to a savings of $850 per year for the average household. Churchill said the Liberals’ plan, by comparison, would save the average household $3,000 annually.

Churchill pointed to the Liberals’ plans to remove all HST from grocery items, provide free public transit and expand transit across Nova Scotia.

“We are the only party committing to looking at our broken property tax system as well and making sure that we create financial incentives to build and develop more housing that we need, but also reduce the property tax burden on homeowners and those that are building our buildings,” said Churchill.

Meanwhile, Chender questioned Houston’s claim that his party would make “methodical tax cuts” and his promise to waive the bridge tolls in Halifax when the city is facing “unprecedented congestion.”

She noted the NDP is vowing to remove the HST from essential items that “every single Nova Scotian needs,” such as food, power bills and cellphone bills.

“The reality is that Nova Scotians need help, and actually taxation has been used for a pretense for this election, and yet we have seen not a single tax cut in three-and-a-half years,” said Chender.

The NDP is also promising to remove the gas tax.

“The gas tax is what makes it expensive to travel in this province,” said Chender. “The gas tax is why Tim has been so upset with Ottawa, and yet this province has the capacity and the responsibility to make life easier for Nova Scotians and you just haven’t done it.”

In response to Chender’s comments, Houston said the Halifax Harbour bridge tolls are the last tolls in the province and he simply doesn’t “think they’re fair.”

Houston then turned his thoughts to the carbon tax, insisting he’s the “only one who has stood up to Ottawa.”

“If we want to have a serious discussion, let’s talk about the carbon tax,” said Houston. “It’s not doing any good for the environment; it needs to go.”

The discussion grew heated, with Churchill pointing out that Houston led a majority government for three years and there’s still a carbon tax in Nova Scotia.

“Your comfort with dishonesty, I find disturbing,” he quipped.

“Here’s the reality; we are the only party that is committing to eliminating the carbon tax with a plan that actually meets the federal legislative framework.”

Houston insisted his government did try to negotiate with Ottawa on the carbon tax, but those negotiations weren’t successful. Chender responded that the PC government’s plan didn’t meet the criteria.

“We are required by Ottawa, whether you like Ottawa or you don’t like Ottawa … we are required to either put forward our own plan that meets the criteria – the government’s plan did not meet the criteria, very obviously – or to accept the federal backstop, and what Tim Houston has done is accepted the federal backstop,” said Chender.

Chender did say all three parties have agreed in the legislature that the carbon tax is providing “a lot of stress for families,” but pointed out Houston is the only person who has been able to have that conversation in Ottawa.

Viewer question: There are a great deal of promises and tax cuts being proposed but not a word on how these will all be paid for. How will you ensure that you don’t put the burden on the next generation?

Churchill said his party has the revenue to accomplish its campaign promises, stating the Liberal platform is fully costed with conservative estimates on revenue. He also noted Houston has overspent by more than a billion dollars every year, and insisted the Liberals have the revenue to stick to its budget.

Battis questioned why Nova Scotia is running perpetual deficits, then, with the province now $18.5 billion in debt.

Houston insisted the PC platform is “costed out” and claimed the NDP would run two back-to-back billion-dollar deficits.

“The rating agency will be knocking at the door and the same thing will happen this time as happened last time under the NDP – taxes will go up,” he said.

As for the Liberals, Houston said their platform has a $900-million hole, stating “the math just doesn’t work on that.”

“We’ve had to catch up; there was no spending for eight years under the Liberals,” said Houston. “Roads were deteriorating, we know they cut health care, so we’ve had to catch up. But good news, the economy is growing. I know not every Nova Scotian is feeling it, but it is growing, and now is the time that we can afford to do methodical, reasonable tax cuts.”

In response, Chender said the money government spends is an investment, claiming that Houston has instead been “investing in his friends” instead of Nova Scotians.

She said the NDP is focused on housing and health care, because that’s where government money is needed most.

“I think it’s really important to acknowledge that that is where our money needs to be invested, because that is where we will get dividends,” said Chender. “If we make sure people are housed, if we make sure they have enough to eat, if we make sure they can pay their bills and have a doctor, our services will be much less expensive down the road.”

Churchill claimed Houston is a premier who’s had “a big spending problem,” but Houston rebutted that his government has been making the investments the previous Liberal government didn’t.

Churchill said his Liberal government would spend money “smartly.”

“Nova Scotians don’t have enough money. The government does right now, we can make these tax adjustments so that we’re not the highest taxed province in our country anymore,” said the Liberal leader.

“We can invest in free public transit; we just have to invest in smarter things, not taking the tolls off bridges.”

Battis pointed out that all three leaders have made promises related to transit in Halifax. The NDP is promising to remove ferry fees, while Churchill is vowing to make all public transit free, and Houston would remove the bridge tolls, leading to the next viewer question.

Viewer question: Is it fair politics for the parties to try to buy votes in the HRM by eliminating fees while all Nova Scotians will be paying for them?

Churchill noted his party is promising to increase public transit across the province, not just remove fees in Halifax. He said the Liberals would partner with municipalities and community transit organizations to improve access to public transit.

Chender said traffic congestion in the Halifax area is a serious issue and removing the bridge tolls won’t make it better. She says the NDP wants to incentivize people to use public transit and get them out of their cars in an effort to ease congestion.

Chender said she, too, would improve the public transit system across the province by partnering with municipalities and working to understand their unique transit needs.

Houston pointed out his government’s promise to cut the HST and plans to invest in roads and infrastructure, which he said would help all Nova Scotians.

Battis brought up the 2024 Report Card on Child and Family Poverty, which indicates roughly 40 per cent of children in Nova Scotia are living in food-insecure households. He asked the leaders how they would help eliminate child poverty.

Chender said school lunches are not enough, referring to the PC’s universal school-lunch program, and said more needs to be done so people have access to affordable housing.

“Housing is the biggest driver of costs and this government has done nothing to protect renters, to keep people in their home, to make sure people have homes they can afford,” said the NDP leader.

Churchill said the Liberals plan to tackle grocery prices, energy costs, and give funding to organizations that help families.

“Energy bills and power bills are driving costs of living up for a lot of working families, middle-income families that are struggling to make ends meet right now, and having a hard time put food on the table,” he said.

Houston defended the school-lunch program, saying it is helping many Nova Scotians.

“It means a lot to Nova Scotians and I’m proud that we were able to deliver that in Nova Scotia,” said the PC leader.

Housing

One of Churchill’s campaign promises is to build 80,000 homes using various forms of construction. However, some wonder where the manpower will come from in order to achieve this goal.

“That’s going to be a challenge but that has to be the goal because if we don’t get to 80,000, this housing crisis is going to get worse and worse. So, we have to throw everything at it, work with other orders of government to make sure that we do this,” he said.

Churchill says a key component to building more affordably is getting rid of the red tape that costs developers money.

“Ensure that we can allow those cheaper, quicker forms of building, like pre-fabrications, modular homes, make sure that we have a property tax regime that incentivizes development and decreases tax on those that are building, and we need to do this or we’re going to have a problem,” he said.

Chender says it’s important to incentivize housing that people can actually afford.

“Because Tim has worked really well with developers to build these condo towers that we see going up, but people can’t afford to live there,” she said.

“And so, we would work with municipalities to identify land, we would work with non-profits and co-ops, and others to ensure that we’re building housing that people can actually afford.”

Chender says the concern over where the labour will come from to build the housing can be overcome if government incentivizes the local industry responsible for flat-pack modular construction.

“That can deliver houses more quickly, more efficiently, more affordably, and with less labour when that is in short supply,” said Chender.

Houston says more housing across the spectrum is the solution to the ongoing housing crisis.

“Our government is the first government in 30 years to invest in public housing. Nobody did, we’re doing it to invest in affordable housing and work with not-for-profits. The solution’s across the spectrum,” he said.

“So, when we build student residences at NSCC, which we’re doing, that means the student can live there. It opens up an apartment. When there’s a condo built downtown, and yes, there are condos being built downtown, maybe somebody sells their house and moves into that, then somebody buys the house and moves out of an apartment. The reason we need housing across the spectrum is because that’s the way you solve the issue.”

Houston says the PCs have a plan, which he says was developed in consultation with 20,000 Nova Scotians who provided feedback.

As far as people who can do the work, Houston says that’s where the “More Opportunities for Skilled Trades” (MOST) program comes into play.

“This is where skilled trades people under 30 get a tax exemption to go into skilled trades, we need them to move back to Nova Scotia and help us build or to stay here,” Houston said. “It is working … we understand the needs and we are working to address them.”

Churchill says a Liberal government goes further than any of the others with its plan to introduce a rent bank to help those who are experiencing a financial struggle.

“To access money interest free to pay their rent. We also want to help seniors downsize,” he said. “The deed transfer tax is a big disincentive for that. We’re willing to get rid of that, but also, a lot of seniors want to stay in their homes, and we want to make sure we’re investing in homecare, in doubling the seniors care grant to make sure that seniors who want to stay in their homes are able to, but those who downsize have specific housing available.”

Houston adds he wishes housing was being built faster and started years ago.

“But we have a plan and we’re working on it and we just need to follow the plan,” he said.

Viewer question: How will you find the right balance between rent control and affordable housing, versus increasing expenses that are cutting into landlords’ margins?

Churchill answered the question first saying the province can get out of rent control once it gets to a healthy vacancy.

“So, we don’t think this housing crisis is going to be permanent, we can get to a three per cent vacancy, and then get ourselves out of the rent control market,” said Churchill.

“While we’re in the housing crisis though, we have to do it. But we also want to support landlords by making them eligible for heat pumps, energy efficiency programs, which they haven’t been, those rebates. It’s the same with tenants. So, we have to find a right balance here of protecting those who are in their homes because they need to be protected.”

Chender spoke next, saying she often hears this question from landlords.

“The reality is, is that five per cent, the supposed rent cap, is the highest in the country and it outpaces inflation. Our suggestion to immediately cut that to 2.5 per cent still puts the allowable rent increase above the rate of inflation but it means that people can stay in their homes and that they are protected,” Chender said.

“In the meantime, there are lots of incentives for people to continue to build and we will continue to incentivize those, and the people who don’t need a return on investment is the non-market housing sector. And that’s why we’re saying that the 30,000 affordable units that Tim’s report said that we needed need to be prioritized and built first. We need to make sure people have homes they can afford.”

Houston says governing is about balance, so it’s important to find the balance between protecting renters and making sure units continue to be built.

“Right now, in this province, there’s more cranes per capita than anywhere else in the country because units are being built and that is the solution. If you swing too far like full-on rent control like the NDP is suggesting and the Liberals, I’m not sure. I think they are, but I can’t tell. But if you swing too far, the construction will stop and the problem will get bigger,” said Houston.

“The solution is more housing. Not more government intervention.”

Ocean Breeze Village renoviction

Last year, about 1,100 people were “renovicted” from affordable housing units in Dartmouth’s Ocean Breeze Village – a neighbourhood located next to the Halifax MacKay Bridge that held some of the lowest rent prices in the city.

When asked why government didn’t take the opportunity to buy the property and allow the tenants to stay in their homes, Houston said he thinks more government intervention is not the answer.

“The answer is less red tape and working with not-for-profits like we are, working with entities that can build units. But I got to say, that is absolutely a heartbreaking story for sure,” he said. “I’ve talked to a number of the residents there, I understand the pain of that situation. There is a process that deals with renovictions. But the simple reality is we need more units built. We don’t need more government intervention, the province already owns a number of units and to be honest, they have a hard time keeping up with the maintenance on them.”

Chender jumped in asking Houston what he says to the people who can’t afford to live in the Halifax Regional Municipality, who don’t know where their kids are going to go to school and who don’t know where they’re going to live.

“What I say to them is you can’t sit in the premier’s chair and not feel every single one of those stories deeply. Like what’s happening in health-care, I carry it very personally, it’s very personal to me. But government can only do so much. I wish government could do everything, I wish they could. But we can only do so much,” Houston said.

“But we have an obligation to do what we can and that’s what we do.”

Many people who rebuilt homes after losing theirs in the 2023 wildfire quickly found out their property taxes had doubled.

Some wonder, if elected, would government reinstate the previous tax caps for these residents.

Churchill says this is something his government has been pushing for.

“We’ve been pushing for this … we brought legislation forward in the legislature to do that. You voted it down every single time, and now when there’s an election, now you care,” said Churchill, speaking directly to Houston.

During his time as premier, Houston says he’s delt with seven natural disasters, including loss of life in some of the floods.

“The fires were devastating for sure … I will say that I’ve been out knocking on doors in that area over the last few days and actually listening very carefully to what the residents were saying and I actually think they’re right,” said Houston.

“The way it was explained to me on those doorsteps was certainly different than how the Liberals explained it. I just have to say … those discussions did make an impact on me and I take that very seriously.”

Chender says there’s no conscionable way those people should have to pay more property tax because they lost their homes.

“There’s no question, I saw Tim vote against that measure when it was brought by my colleagues and I think that was the wrong choice. And I agree, it’s election time, so there’s lots of things that are being promised now that votes are going to be cast but the proof is in the pudding and at the end of the day, when he had an opportunity to make these peoples lives easier, he didn’t take it,” said Chender.

Health care

As part of her election platform, Chender has promised to open 15 collaborative family doctor clinics in their first year in government and build over 45 clinics by the end of 2027, if elected.

When asked how spending more money will help fix problems now when it hasn’t in the past, she said she believes this is a problem of prioritization.

“So, as we’ve been talking about, the reality is that Nova Scotians aren’t getting the health care they need. We hear terrible stories about people receiving a diagnosis in the ER, people living with chronic conditions that they can’t get addressed. The only way to address that is primary care, and that has not been the focus of this government,” said Chender.

“This government came in on a promise to fix health care and yet, primary care has just fallen right down the list. And we know that because we’ve gone from 70,000 unattached Nova Scotians to 145,000 Nova Scotians who don’t have that consistent care from a doctor clinic that they need. And again, it’s priorities, it’s investment. By investing in care for these folks upstream, Nova Scotians are going to stay healthier, they’re going to stay out of our emergency rooms and in many cases, there is money on the table. We know that Ottawa is offering money to give all Nova Scotians free birth control right now. We could be doing that, but this government is leaving that money on the table and I can’t for the life of me figure out why.”

Houston admits fixing health care was one of his main promises during his last election campaign, but adds he was very clear that it would take time.

“We inherited a mess, and I’ll tell you, today, there’s 300 more doctors, additional doctors. So, think about this for a second. We are where we are with 300 more doctors. That tells you the magnitude,” said Houston.

“And yes, the list went from 75,000, it went all the way down to 165,000. Then it got stable. In September, almost 20,000 people got a phone call saying, ‘You’re not attached to a primary care provider.’ In October, there was, I think 12,000 that got that phone call and now we’re making progress. Now we’re able to do that because there’s 300 more doctors. But I know there are more doctors on the way. We’ll deal with the here and now, and we are, but I know there are more doctors on the way because this summer, a medical school will open at Cape Breton University, and that will mean something for the future.”

Houston also points to the International Medical Graduate Assessment Clinic – which he says will also allow more doctors to work in this province.

“We all know doctors that are from here and are down in Australia, New Zealand and can’t come back. This is the path for them to come back, this will make a difference in that 45 doctors a year. But there is progress, it’s taking time for sure … and I know it by speaking with the health-care professionals. They finally feel supported by a government for the first time,” he said.

Churchill says governments of all stripes have spent money on health care in the past, and outcomes continue to get worse.

“Twice as many people without a family doctor is not an improvement, ER closures more than ever before is not an improvement. Mr. Houston said last time you can get a pizza before you can get an ambulance. Now you can get a pizza, a garlic fingers, and a Donair because the wait times are three-hundredths what they were,” Churchill said.

“The fundamentals of our health-care system are in tatters … I remember when Mr. Houston was in opposition he said, 'It might not be my fault. It’s my responsibility.’ But now it’s always everybody else’s fault … that’s the reality. It’s the blame game.”

Some Nova Scotians feel the days of having your own doctor are done.

Churchill says he understands why people feel that way since the amount of people in need of a primary care provider has doubled under the current government.

“But here’s the reality. We are committed to building collaborative care clinics from one end of the province to the other, ones that we know bring doctors back into family medicine. They’re leaving family medicine right now even though we’re recruiting every single year,” said Churchill.

With Chender’s promise of 45 clinics with 10 doctors each by 2027, she was asked where the 450 doctors will come from.

“The reality is, is that this is where doctors want to work. So, it’s fine to bring all the doctors in, but if you’re going to burden them with running a business, having 2,000 patients, having to navigate a system that is still broken, they’re not going to stay. And that’s what we’ve seen,” said Chender.

“Tim says 20,000 people came off the list and into care. They didn’t. Some of those people moved, some of those people died, some of those people got removed by accident. The reality is, as you say, people want care and they’re going to get care if we allocate our resources properly. If we offer physicians the opportunity to work in an environment where they are supported, where they have staff around them, where they know that people have their backs, where the system is improving, that’s what those doctor clinics are.”

Houston replied to the oppositions plans to add more clinics, saying it’s nothing new.

“We have a plan, you can check it out online and follow along, we’re working on the plan. These are no overnight solutions,” said Houston.

Viewer question: Considering the doctor shortage is being experienced across Canada, what would Ms. Chender and Mr. Churchill do differently to hire more doctors for the province?

In response to the viewer question, Churchill points out that all governments have recruited more doctors but says more of them are not pursuing family medicine.

“Out of all the doctors Houston said that he brought in last year, 10 of them went into family medicine. That’s according to his own documents, you can look it up. We have to incentivize the doctors that we’re getting to get back into family medicine, to work collaboratively with allied health-care professionals … that way we know they’re going to take on more patients. And even more importantly, we’re going to catch illnesses earlier. If we don’t invest in preventative care and early diagnosing, we are going to be chasing our tails on health care for the next 20 years,” he said.

Chender reiterates it’s about prioritizing what matters most, which she says is primary care.

“So, the reality is, it hasn’t been. This government gave Google $44 million to search your health records, they spent tens-of-millions-of-dollars on a health-care facility that has not served a single patient, they have been putting deals, and apps, and technology ahead of getting you a doctor,” she said.

“And that’s what we would do differently. We would prioritize making sure that these clinics get built, they get staffed, and that you get care wherever you are … We’ve heard Tim say, ‘We’ve created nine-billion appointments.’ It doesn’t matter how many appointments Tim creates, it’s not attachment to primary care. It doesn’t matter because it’s not consistent care.”

Houston corrected that number by Chender, saying his government has created one-million new additional primary care appointment opportunities – something he says shouldn’t be minimized.

“In a province of a million people, this is significant, and we did that by pharmacy clinics, we did that by urgent treatment centres, mobile clinics. They’re working. And in this province, the reason why we can do all those things is because of a piece of legislation we passed called the Patient Access to Care Act. That’s what’s making things work. The NDP voted against the Patient Access to Care Act. They actually voted against progress. The Liberals argued for hours and hours, but because of that act, there are one-million new appointment opportunities.”

Churchill was asked first if there’s a place for privatized health care in Nova Scotia, he says he doesn’t think the province is in a position to be audiological on how health care is delivered.

“The stakes are too high, we have more people dying in hospital, more people dying with illnesses before they even have a chance to get diagnosed. So, while I support new access points, like the pharmacy programs which we piloted when we were in government and this government expanded them, pharmacists can’t diagnose. This is why we want to build collaborative care clinics so that we can change where all the money is going in health care,” he said.

“Ninety per cent of what we spend in health care is in the last three months of somebody’s life. We have to start investing in people’s health, not just putting band-aids on a broken system. That way, not only are we going to take pressure off health care if we diagnose cancer and heart disease earlier, we’re actually going to help people live longer, happier lives and that is good for everybody.”

Houston says he believes in the publicly funded system.

“I mean, certainly with some specific surgeries, like eye surgeries where there’s a backlog, it’s still publicly funded but it’s maybe done in a private clinic. Nova Scotians would be used to this because they went to pharmacies for their COVID shots. Those are private enterprises that they went and got health care and they didn’t have to pay for,” Houston said.

“But I believe in the public system. The real issue with what the NDP and the Liberals are talking about is what your viewer said. We need doctors. That’s why we’re dealing with the ‘here and now’ with a million new appointments, but we’re also looking to the future. The new medical school will produce 30 doctors a year who will stay in this province, who want to be here. And the International Medical Graduate Assessment Clinic, that will start bringing doctors here in January.”

Chender says the biggest concern for privatized health care is that when the system is so broken, people can’t get the care they need.

“And I think about the patients who have had to travel abroad for surgeries that they cannot get here and then sue the government to get the money back. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. That’s where privatized health care creeps in, when our system is broken. And the reality is, is that three-and-a-half years into a government that promised to fix health care, not withstanding the shiny book that everyone got in the mail that you paid for that told you it was fixed when the election was launched, it’s not fixed,” she said.

“As long as we have a system where people have to wait for years, go through a bureaucratic quagmire to try and get an answer to whether they can get the health care they need, have to stand in line in the cold to see a doctor, we are going to see those private solutions because people are going to get the health care they need one way or the other.”

Viewer question: The IWK’s endometriosis and chronic pelvic pain clinic has wait times up to 18 months or more for initial consultation, and only operates once a week. What steps would government take to reduce wait times?

Chender says this is one of the conditions for which the free birth control, which the NDP has been pushing for, would go a long way.

“That is a prescribed medication for conditions like endometriosis, but not for (some), because there are many people who have much more severe manifestations and they need more help. And that wait time is unacceptable. It's not different than the menopause clinic that Tim has talked about. One day a week, the wait times will be just as long. What we need is comprehensive care,” said Chender.

“And when I talk to people with endometriosis or PCOS or other similar conditions, what they say is if I had caught it earlier, if a physician had believed me, if I had had a family doctor, I wouldn't be in the situation I'm in now. It wouldn't have gotten as bad. And this brings us back to primary care. We need to make sure that Nova Scotians have the care they need when they need it.”

For women specifically, Churchill says there are large gaps in research for their health – adding that 80 per cent of the research that’s been done in health has been on the male body.

“That's why we want to reestablish the Women's Health Institute to bridge that gap and fill that gap. We want to make sure that 50 cents on every dollar that's invested in health research goes into bridging that gap in women's health and research,” said Churchill.

“We also need to get primary care improved and having family doctors. The reason why the wait times are going up to see specialists is because we don't have doctors and people are going to pharmacies, they're going to allied health-care professionals, and those folks aren't able to diagnose, we are seeing the wait time shoot up for specialists. So, we need more specialists, but we also need more doctors who diagnose early so that we can reduce the wait time.”

Although a reality, Houston says no one accepts those wait times.

“It is a reality because over 12 years ago, when the NDP was in government they got a report. It said, ‘we need more doctors.’ They didn't do anything, the Liberals didn't do anything. We're doing things. But I just want Nova Scotians to know, pharmacy clinics, urgent treatment centres, they're not part of the problem. They're part of the solution. The Liberals may not agree with that, but we need to make sure people have different access points,” he said.

“But on the very specific question, certainly there is a gap in women's care. We have to get the out-of-province care sorted out for sure. There's issues there for sure that have been highlighted. There's no question about that. There's a lot of illnesses. We're probably never going to have in Nova Scotia a specialist for every single illness. So, we need to make sure that the out-of-province, when people have to travel, that the process for that works for reimbursement. And, we're committed to working at that and we will.”

Chender asked Houston why his government won’t provide free birth control products.

“Is it because you have a minister who is anti-abortion? Is it because you're worried about what people think? There is money on the table for half of the population to have health care, medicine that they need, and your government won’t fund it,” Chender asked Houston.

“No, I'm pro-choice. Our party's pro-choice. I have lots of very strong, powerful women in my life. They are also pro-choice. I listen carefully to them. If there's money from Ottawa for something, believe me, we're the first people to scoop it up. What we want is more money from Ottawa for the issues that they need to fund. We work with Ottawa nicely on a bunch of issues, but you know, we'll continue to do that.”

Chender asked her question about birth control again, adding that British Columbia and Manitoba provide the medicine for free to everyone in those provinces.

“I think what's happening is like what we saw on the eve of the election last time, the Liberals jumped at the Ottawa child-care thing. It was the wrong decision because they didn't negotiate a good deal. So, on the whole pharmacare thing, we won't jump when Ottawa just dangles something in front of us. That's the responsibility of the premier to negotiate the best deal possible,” said Houston.

Churchill says, before Houston was in office, the Need a Family Practice list was half of what it is today – there weren’t as many ER closures and there were less deaths in emergency departments.

“We have to get back to the fundamentals of health care, investing in those emergency rooms in our hospitals, like the VG that is overrun with infection and mice and garbage in the hallways. We have to make sure that we're getting people family doctors again and not relying on one appointment that is good for strep throat and prescription renewals, but isn't going to help someone that needs to get diagnosed with cancer,” he said.

“I talked to doctors and say they've got patients that are dying before they even get diagnosed. That is not a symptom of a health-care system.”

Immigration and growth

Nova Scotia’s population is now more than one-million people. When asked why so many people were allowed into the province when it became evident that Nova Scotia couldn’t provide basic needs, like housing and jobs, Houston said there are multiple elements when it comes to population growth.

“Some is just Canadians moving to Nova Scotia, could be somebody’s grandchild moving home, could be somebody just moving back. You can't really control that. You just have to … plan for that,” he said.

Houston said as far as the immigration file, those numbers are about 7,000. He then added with some bringing family members, it could be up to 12,000 to 15,000. Battis confirmed that stat, saying the total is 12,000.

“But we've been very focused now on health care workers and skilled trades. So, help us provide care to Nova Scotians or help us build the province. Certainly, we've heard the concerns of Nova Scotians, I share those concerns, we've definitely dialed it back and we're very strategic and focused on what's happening now,” he said.

Battis asked if the province has become too reliant on new Canadians and immigrants to fill certain jobs, like fast-food restaurants, and fill the province’s universities.

“Well, maybe they did for a time, for sure. I mean, those jobs are there and certainly the way we've got strategic now, with health care and skilled trades, I know some people in the hospitality sector are not happy because they have openings to fill. But certainly, we just need to focus on what's important to Nova Scotia and that's health care and skilled trades. And we'll continue to do that. I heard the concerns, I share the concerns. That's why that's one of the things this election is about. Huge infrastructure investments are necessary,” Houston said.

Churchill said Houston made it public that his government wanted to grow the population. He says the growth has been creating stress when it comes to traffic congestion, the housing market, and overcrowded schools and hospitals.

“We have to grow at a sustainable level. Mr. Houston's been doing this by doubling the amount of provincial nominations – this is all on the public record too. Less than 14 per cent of those provincial nominations are for the skilled trade and health care workforce. So, we do have to grow at a sustainable level. We can't have people move here and hotel hop with their kids for six months, and we can't have a situation where the price of our housing keeps getting driven up because we have scarcity of housing and a big supply of people coming in,” said Churchill.

Chender says currently government has failed to address the infrastructure problems and as has not prioritized housing that people can afford.

“The reality is, is that immigration targets are set by Ottawa and they have reduced those targets. And that's what we're working with now. But we have an election where this has become a political football … These are people's lives. This is a province and a country that are built on immigrants and that are going to continue to be built on immigrants,” said Chender.

“And the question is, how do we support the people who are here? How do we work constructively with Ottawa to make sure that those numbers are right? As I said, those numbers are lower now. And so now what we need to focus on are all of the things that we've been hearing excuses for all night. We need to focus on protecting renters so they can stay in their homes, on building more housing so that we have more affordable places to live, on making sure that people have health care, and that, one thing we haven't talked about, our schools aren't overflowing at the seams, and we have a government that doesn't wait till election period to announce new ones.”

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